Life's Curveballs: Sudden Loss & Finding Strength in the Face of Grief

In this heartfelt episode, Teresa welcomes Anne Marie, a lifelong friend, who shares her poignant story of loss and resilience after her husband Alexander's death in a ski accident in January 2011. Anne Marie discusses the emotional and practical challenges she faced, including supporting her two grieving children while completing the family home her husband had been building. Highlighting the critical role played by friends, family, and specific resources, Anne Marie credits Comfort Zone Camp, Krista St. Germain’s widowed mom podcast, and Elisabeth Kübler-Ross's 'Five Stages of Grief' as important aids in her recovery. She also touches on the remarkable bond and gratitude shared with one of the recipients of her late husband's organ donations, illustrating the powerful ways in which love and support can traverse even the most harrowing circumstances.

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Transcript

0:39

Hi everyone. Welcome to the show and happy Monday. Today I'm joined by a very special guest, a dear friend of mine, Anne Marie, who I've known for over 30 years. We're going to have a heartfelt conversation about a significant loss she experienced and how she found strength and support during that very challenging time.

Teresa: 1:08

Good morning, darling. How are you?

ANNE-MARIE: 1:12

I am well.

Teresa: 1:13

I am so excited to have you on here as my very first guest. When I started planning this podcast and brainstorming about potential topics, I knew your story of strength and resilience was one that needed to be shared. I was deeply moved by everything you had been through and how you navigated such a difficult time. In January of 2011, your husband, Alexander went on an annual ski trip with his friends and you stayed home, right?

ANNE-MARIE: 1:49

Yes, You received a call on January 25th with some shocking news that he had been in a fatal ski accident. This must have been an incredibly difficult time for you. Can you describe some of the initial emotions and challenges that you faced after this call if we start off with emotionally, I had to learn to navigate these two worlds that I simultaneously found myself in. I was in the physical world as we know it, and then from the other side, I had Alexander still communicating with me. So that was, that was the first, emotional, task that I needed to kind of get a handle on. In addition to that, we've had, two children, Gabe was 12 at the time, Gianna was 16, they were obviously devastated and faced with their own challenges because Alexander was, not only a great dad, he was a very hands on dad and he was a coach to a lot of Gabe's sports and gabe really lost his hero, and Gianna lost her dad and had to deal with that at a college prep high school, and she was a junior that year. I had that on my plate as well. And then, from a practical standpoint, I had to face the irony that I would be the one finishing this house, was only 80 percent done. Had four rooms that were in studs. I had a detached garage, which had been his construction shop. Cause he was a general contractor building our home. I had to empty the shop of all of the power tools that he'd collected for 28 years so I could demolish that old garage and then make room for a new one. I had the front and the back landscape to redo. I mean, it was a lot. But, I was grateful that Alexander and I had talked quite often about each other's wishes in the event of our death. I think we did that because we had lost a lot of people already in our married life. And, we would discuss

Teresa: 4:08

Okay.

ANNE-MARIE: 4:23

When you know what your spouse's or your partner's wishes are, then you're sort of executing right? You're not second guessing yourself and then also because of this interesting experience I was having where I was able to tap into him on the other side Or he was more aptly tapping into me I would be awoken three in the with song riffs that he really liked. And he was telling me in my head, these were thoughts that I did not put there. They were like implanted in my brain. He was telling me what songs he wanted to have included in the video montage that we were working on for his memorial. What I found interesting right from the start is that I had married a guy, Alexander, he himself had lost his dad when he was 7. My mother in law was 31 with 4 kids under the age of 8. And I had seen the consequences of that loss in Alexander and in his three siblings, whom I met as adults, right? And I really felt in those early days that, all that he had shared with me about his childhood without a dad, it's like it had provided me with a playbook of sorts. I had a knowingness about the experience from a child's point of view, because of what he had gone through. I knew that grief counseling was going to be super important. And my mother in law at the time didn't really have access to, nor was it really talked about much back then. This is in the, early sixties, but I knew that I needed to get. My children, some support more so than what I could give them. one night again three in the morning I'm awoken and I have a very active child. Gabe, is

Teresa: 6:09

Right. Mm hmm. Okay.

ANNE-MARIE: 6:16

came this place, this resource that I recommend to anyone who finds themselves in a situation with children. It's a, a summer camp called Comfort Zone Camp, it is free, and it's where all the participants are children from the ages of five to 18, and you can't go to camp unless you have suffered a great loss. It's supported entirely by donations. All the Greek counselors are there as volunteers. I mean, it's just, Amazing. Gabe went in there suicidal. He had a suicide plan that he had shared with me I called the director to say, Hey, heads up, this is my son and they were very grateful for the heads up. Again, this is not the first time this had happened, once my son got there, he told me later, you know, he understood he was not alone. I think that's the

Teresa: 7:07

Yeah. Right,

ANNE-MARIE: 7:14

He learned how to speak about how he was feeling. He heard other kids talk about how they were feeling, and so he comes out of that camp four days later me, mama, I am not going to commit suicide. I just couldn't do that to you, right?

7:33

That is absolutely incredible. Your heart must have been singing and you must have been crying at the same time.

ANNE-MARIE: 7:40

all at the same time, this place was just magic. And it was started by a woman who was a child herself when she lost a parent and there were no resources for her. So I can't say enough about comfort zone camp. then once we got home, he also saw a local counselor weekly for a few months after that camp. My daughter who was 16, she also went to grief counseling, but a bit begrudgingly. You know, I've always had a good line of communication with our kids. So thankfully they openly shared what they were feeling with me to the best of their abilities. And my daughter thought she could just talk to me and I would say, okay, but I'm not properly trained. For me, they're sharing. While it was hugely important, it was probably the most gut wrenching aspect of this sad situation.

Teresa: 8:28

You're so fortunate that they were open with you and shared these deep, dark feelings with you it's just an unbelievable lift more difficult with teenagers because they're very aware of what happened.

ANNE-MARIE: 8:43

Yes And because they were supported that gave me some bandwidth to support myself

Teresa: 8:50

Yeah.

ANNE-MARIE: 8:51

I think if I had not had that playbook that I got sort of Coincidentally by marrying alexander who had lost his dad when he was only seven I might not have been as astute but I really felt like I knew what I needed to do for them And that enabled some time to free up to try to support myself.

Teresa: 9:15

What would you say were some of the things that helped keep you going? When there was so much happening, you had two children, you were trying to, guide and help get through their own emotions. You also had this unfinished home can you talk about. The resources you leaned into

ANNE-MARIE: 9:38

sure. There were many. I'd say the first person I really leaned into at that time was my sister, Isabelle. She left her three young kids who live four hours away and she came to live here with my kids while I was at the trauma hospital in Reno. four days, I was arranging, Alexander's organ donations. We were both organ donors Isabella and I have been able to talk about anything and everything and she actively listened to the details of all this information that I was getting from the other side from Alexander and she never once thought I was crazy. That was golden for me. I think another thing I did is, acceptance. I accepted that on some level, his passing had to make sense

Teresa: 10:28

Right.

ANNE-MARIE: 10:32

who, one of the relatives who spoke at his funeral said, figured God just needed a master carpenter to help him complete a new wing on one of his heavenly castles. And Alexander is thrilled because he knows he has all of eternity to complete it.

Teresa: 10:53

Yes,

ANNE-MARIE: 10:55

Yes, because at the time of his passing, we were at the 12 year mark of rebuilding our home. He took the house that we lived in on this lot for nine years and he completely demolished it. It became a hole in the ground and I was pregnant with Gabe and we had to move out obviously because I had no roof we were fortunate to find a rental just a mile away and we rented for nine years. then it was like good enough for us to come in, like the kitchen was done and we had one bathroom. It was, it was pretty bare bones, when he passed away, I still had 20 percent of stuff to finish and a new garage to build. I became a paper general contractor like overnight. I really made it a point to talk about Alexander with the kids and with the others. I have known people who have lost people and like, you can't say their name and it's very awkward and that's not the case here in this house. We talk about him often and he's in every square centimeter of this house cause he designed it and built it. And his cremains are in a beautiful wooden urn that was turned on a lathe and it's sitting in the kitchen exactly as he had requested. when we had talked about this early on, eventuality of one or the other dying, he wanted his cremains to be in a beer stein that he had collected from Germany, he didn't, what he didn't realize is that there are a lot of cremains. I mean, it's a lot of content when someone goes through that process. I had again, friends coming out of the woodwork asking how they could help, and I assigned the task of purchasing an urn for the cremains to one of our friends, he came back with this beautiful urn that's all wood. I mean, exactly Alexander's aesthetic and it's in the kitchen. We talk about him. He left us a lot of funny and a lot of loving memories. And, and we revisit those often I also leveraged my mother in law in, in a way. she had succeeded with far fewer resources than I had, and she to raise four wonderful human beings. So that example also gave me courage my parents were both 81 at the time. And they reassured me that they were there to help in any way. And I was their 51 year old child yet. Their offer was just so comforting, so comforting. And then I have a great circle of friends who are reliable and colleagues and neighbors and people feel helpless. They feel helpless. Alexander was loved in the community and they would cross my threshold, in tears. And if you give them something to do, if you have a task that you can assign to them, makes them feel better because it gives them something to do

13:38

I remember when I was recovering from all the different surgeries as a result of the major health issues that I went through and people would ask how they could help and sometimes I wasn't sure how they could help and it was great when they just stepped up and took charge.

Teresa: 13:57

People do feel helpless, they want to help. And some people need more direction than others.

ANNE-MARIE: 14:02

Yeah, it's great to have friends who, can proactively suggest or do, when I got back from Reno, I have a pretty large kitchen with a lot of countertops and I couldn't see the countertops Teresa, they were covered with food, and cakes and cookies. People had come out of the woodwork and Isabel is here, my sister, greeting them all. Well, we had food for days and a freezer stock full of stuff. So I think that's the first thing that people kindly offer, right? Because who's got the energy to even think about going to the grocery store. I think if you get quiet, right, if you just get quiet and you think seriously about, okay, what are the things in front of me and how can people help? I mean, I had a whole memorial to plan and it had to be a really

Teresa: 14:46

right.

ANNE-MARIE: 14:49

I have the good fortune of having a great pod of friends from my high school. We plan our high school reunions together every five years. And so we have this cadence and the system, right? I lobbied them they were my proxy and they got all the stuff done that I envisioned I wanted and it was beautiful. Exactly like it needed to be.

15:10

That's so incredible. It's really wonderful to have a village of friends supporting you and who helped you orchestrate all of this.

ANNE-MARIE: 15:22

Absolutely.

15:23

It would be really wonderful for everybody to hear the people that you connected with who have Alexander's organs and talk about the special bond that you made with one of them in particular.

ANNE-MARIE: 15:37

When I was in the, trauma hospital in Reno, I'm faced with a bazillion different forms and, There were many things and there were many boxes, but there was one box that I checked that asked if I wanted to be contacted by any of the recipients. I want to be clear that not everyone who's related to an organ donor needs to check that box for some people, they don't want to know. I knew for me in that moment, I knew that if I could understand how His organs help somebody else, but that would help me. I'm curious by nature and I wanted to see right where this ended up. So I checked that box and. Everything is anonymous. It remains confidential. I waited two years and I didn't receive, any contact. What would normally happen is the recipient would be notified that

Teresa: 16:24

hmm. I'm not sure if that was a good idea to get in there. So, yeah. I'm going to go ahead and say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, Okay. Um,

ANNE-MARIE: 17:19

but in san francisco saw what was going on It was really too late to do anything and they actually called the family in one fine morning to say their goodbyes to her they told the family, short of a transplant, this is not going to end well. And that afternoon, Alexander's liver became available. She wakes up from a coma in San Francisco. welcome back, you're in San Francisco and you have a new liver. A little shocking. In my letter, I explained, who this guy was, right? Who this donor was, what he was about, what his passions were. I just really wanted the recipients to have an understanding of him, as a

Teresa: 18:01

Um,

ANNE-MARIE: 18:26

Do tell. He says, well, six months after her transplant, go to her house and I find her gutting the hallway bathroom. Like, removing everything. The tile, the cabinets. I'm like, Tracy, have you ever done this

Teresa: 18:40

Okay.

ANNE-MARIE: 18:45

just gonna do it. And mind you, they had no letter from me yet, right? So

Teresa: 18:50

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

ANNE-MARIE: 19:02

So, they get my letter and they're like, roh, this makes sense now.

Teresa: 19:10

We know why she's suddenly interested in remodeling her home.

ANNE-MARIE: 19:15

Right? single woman

Teresa: 19:18

it's very miraculous.

ANNE-MARIE: 19:20

And he, Jim, is not a believer at all. Jim is quite the scientist This really had him scratching his

Teresa: 19:27

I bet it did because how can you explain that? She had no interest in that or she received Alexander's liver and all of a sudden she's got this new found skill, interest,

ANNE-MARIE: 19:42

Passion!

Teresa: 19:44

Do you stay in touch with her?

ANNE-MARIE: 19:47

I do. We get together for lunch a couple times a year he is such a responsible recipient. You know, she cares for this liver with kid gloves. I gave her a picture of Alexander the first day I met her in person. And she tells me she keeps that by her bedside and she thanks him every day. And she sends me birthday cards and in the birthday cards, she'll say, you know, I got to go to. My grandson's high school graduation. And I know I wouldn't have been able to do that without Alexander. And then the kid graduates from college or somebody has a baby. She's just so present and she's so appreciative. I didn't need to meet these recipients or have a relationship with them I see it as A blessing. I mean, it sucks that my husband's not here. And, yet look at the blessing, that these people have had in their lives and how appreciative they are. And, one of the

Teresa: 20:43

So what is the most important thing that I was doing? I was trying to make sure that I was, I was making sure that I was doing it for the right It was just so important to me. So if I'm going to do a presentation, I have to make sure I'm doing it for the right people.

ANNE-MARIE: 20:54

he asked me for permission to name his child, Alexander. When you become a widow. everything changes. Everything from you watch on TV to what you eat to the songs that you listen to. You realize how intertwined you are with your person when they're suddenly not here. It's more than just not having them in your bed to keep you warm. You know, it's just, everything changes.

Teresa: 21:20

Yeah.

ANNE-MARIE: 21:20

I was very, overwhelmed, understandably. So at first, and, I did a few things that I think helped me in my overwhelm that gradually I did become, confident. I'm a confident person by nature and there are a lot of reasons for my confidence. Was such a brand new adventure and I kind of looked at it that way. I did certain things to keep me grounded and help me through that overwhelm. And, gradually then it's like, okay, I got this. You and I are alike. Not everybody has a strong. Will or a strong spirit To push through when shit hits the fan no matter what that is I think that's what's drawn us to each other being lifelong friends And watching each other go through a lot in our adult lives It does take a stronger spirit to push through. There's choices we have in these moments. You've demonstrated, you chose to easy make sure you and your children i, care of through camp, counseling, talking openly to your kids, even though you yourself. We're absolutely devastated inside. Yes, and I, I honored that devastation. I am all about feel the feelings I'm a very optimistic person. You know that, but don't think it's prudent when you are faced with something this shocking to just play the happy game. I think what's important is to allow yourself to feel the feelings and that is what gets you through. So for example, we had a deluge of sympathy cards here and I would get the kids off to school and I would pick 10 sympathy cards, make my cup of coffee. while I drank my cup of coffee, I allowed myself. To feel way I would sob as I drank my coffee then I'd shower and I'd get dressed and maybe put on a little makeup and you know, I'd seize the day. I think that's just vitally important because the worst thing about a shock, right? Is, is the feeling and a feeling in and of itself is not going to kill you. So the more you can accept the fact that, yep. This stinks, and feel what all of that is, I think

Teresa: 23:47

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

ANNE-MARIE: 23:53

I saw it as a, a growth opportunity.

23:58

I love that you honored yourself by reading those cards. It must have been incredibly difficult bringing up a lot of sadness and tears. Many people would avoid that choosing to avoid the pain of the emotions, but you gave yourself that important moment of reflection and processing a moment of therapy.

ANNE-MARIE: 24:25

I really sort of innately knew, okay. I need every synapse I have in my brain, you know, banging on all cylinders here cause I have so much to deal with I didn't drink for eight years. I did not touch a drop of alcohol for eight years

Teresa: 24:39

That's amazing.

ANNE-MARIE: 24:40

I needed to keep my wits, about me. The other blessing that I do want to point out is my employer at the time, IBM. They were awesome. They granted me a three year leave of absence. Hello. I had the HR lady repeat that on the phone because I could not believe what I was hearing my job was waiting for me and what's really interesting is, so that was a three year leave of absence. And at the two year mark, then the house was finished, things were really buttoned up, and my kids separately came to me and said, so when are you going to go back to work? Cause they knew I was the sole provider before. And I am clearly the sole provider still is like, how is this working? I thought that that was a good sign, but my goodness, the blessing of the time to be here, to be the paper general contractor, you know, managing all the people that I had here to finish up.

Teresa: 25:35

The fact that your employer offered that benefit to you. I can't imagine what it would have been like if you had the financial strain on your shoulders On top of everything else it truly is a blessing. And another sign of Alexander, sending his spirit to you and everyone around you.

ANNE-MARIE: 25:59

it really was because I had never any intention of working for big blue. You know, me, I was the startup person, I never in a million years thought I'd be working there, but one of my more successful startups got acquired by said company, and that's why I ended up there. And for the first six months, I felt like, well, we all felt like we were banging our heads against a brick wall. And Alexander would look at me and say, you know, but hun, it's a big company. You'll be able to find another role that makes more sense, you know, given the new landscape. And, you know, you can stick it out a year. He would tell me. You could stick it out a year. I took that guidance because I had no home. He was rebuilding. I had, you know, two kids in school that I was funding. I mean, the last thing I needed to do was to go and try to find a different job because that's a whole cycle in of itself. I stayed at IBM for 10 years, in total 15 years. But when this happened, I was almost near my 10 year mark. And HR. Saying my praises about all the great stuff I had done, which is why they offered me the three year leave of absence. But it's still just felt surreal to hear that. It made every difference in the world. They gave me a toll free number for my children to call a therapist. If the to talk to some, just

Teresa: 27:10

yeah. What would you say to others who are facing this loss?

ANNE-MARIE: 27:17

I have a lot to say. I do talk to widows on a pretty regular basis and I just, I just level set with new widows, right? There's the five stages of grief that was put forth by Elizabeth Kubler Ross. There's, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. She's got this framework that's supposed to help us learn to live with our loss. And. I get why that idea of these, you know, stages, it feels really comforting because when you're in the middle of this grief, the thought that there's a roadmap and like a clear path with an end point. I mean, that can feel like a lifeline, but in my experience, grief doesn't work like that at it is not linear. doesn't

Teresa: 28:00

Right.

ANNE-MARIE: 28:07

I tell them there's no right way to grieve my friend. Grief is. Messy and how you grieve is as unique as your relationship with your

Teresa: 28:17

Um.

ANNE-MARIE: 28:18

I saw that with my family of three and I think what really gets them to have their eyes widened is I explained that grief is not something that diminishes over time. Remains constant. It's like a weight that we carry. And so over time,

Teresa: 28:38

Yeah.

ANNE-MARIE: 28:43

those feelings, I look at that, like lifting that weight daily, then you build this emotional strength. You build the muscle. That you need to carry it, also a fabulous life coach by the name of Krista with a K St. Germain. I don't know her personally. I've never met with her, but I stumbled upon her and she offers. podcasts that are called the widowed mom podcast. I know she has a community on Facebook and she got into this because when she was 40, her husband suddenly died in front of her, unfortunately, changing a tire on the side of the road. He died in 2016, right? And my husband had died in 2011. So it would have been great to have some of these resources that she has put forth. I can't say enough about her work. In listening to her podcast, even this far down the road, they serve to give me

Teresa: 29:38

Okay. Uh huh.

ANNE-MARIE: 29:45

post traumatic growth. That's, that's a thing. I definitely felt that I didn't have those words, I knew I had expanded. I am just a much bigger and I'm much more, I'd even say capable person because of this experience. And then the other thing is I tell widows, we touched on this earlier, not to be shy about asking for help or accepting help, being open to help. I think it's important to move every day. I mean, I had a little doggy that I, that I still walk every day and, and we do

Teresa: 30:20

I'm going to show you how to do it. all for joining us today, and we hope to see you again soon. Silence. Right.

ANNE-MARIE: 30:51

any less. Living proof that, you can have grief and joy. They can, they can coexist.

Teresa: 30:57

That's great to hear. I loved the different resources you leaned into, taking care of your body because. We can abuse ourselves when life isn't going our way. It's amazing to hear how well you took care of yourself. You just held it up so well

ANNE-MARIE: 31:16

yeah, every day. And yeah, I mean, the grief bombs, they still come and happen, and they catch you surprise. But you can't have those feelings living inside you. That's also poison to your body. I mean, you just can't.

Teresa: 31:29

Right.

ANNE-MARIE: 31:30

The only way out is through, feeling all of this and, and allowing yourself to feel the feelings. And like I said, it's not going to kill you, and it's unpleasant, but you get to the other side and you're stronger for it.

Teresa: 31:43

It's another life lesson

ANNE-MARIE: 31:45

it is. And I thank you for the compliment, but, you know, I think back to when you're on the airplane and they talk about if the air masks are going to pop down the parent or the adult is supposed to put the mask on first and then the children. And that's what I was. It's like, you know, as my daughter aptly stated, and you know, you are the last parent standing. I needed to figure it out, for me and for them. When I got back from Reno, I said, look, I've, never done this before, but, I'm confident that together we will figure it out.

Teresa: 32:16

Do you think knowing, you're the, the only parent for your kids, that that also plays into how well you take care of yourself?

ANNE-MARIE: 32:27

I've always taken good care of myself. That's just sort of been, I was an athlete all through, you know, school through college. That's just sort of my makeup. I come from. I'm a hundred percent Basque. We are people of the earth. We eat real food. I was blessed to have parents with a fabulous vegetable garden in the backyard. They couldn't speak English, but they made a mean soup and, that's always been a part of me. and what I did learn as I got older is how poisoned in many ways, the food supply in the United States of America is, and how you have to be all the more vigilant as

Teresa: 33:04

I'm a so much for joining us, and we'll see you next time.

ANNE-MARIE: 33:13

this in your brain and even doing some of the things that I was doing, the body keeps score.

Teresa: 33:18

Yes,

ANNE-MARIE: 33:19

I try to help my body every way I can

Teresa: 33:23

Are there any traditions or ways that you and your kids, celebrate Alexander's memory?

ANNE-MARIE: 33:33

We celebrate, as I said, kind of throughout the year we think about him often, but like on his birthday, I'll put a special little bow on top of his urn that sits in the kitchen. We'll light a candle. He left us with an interesting thing. My son and I both see this often. So was also an athlete and he loved to wear the number 33. When Gabe became an athlete and Alexander became a coach, Alexander worked at such that Gabe often had the number 33. So passes away and Gabe and I see the number 33 in the most random of places, but it's like in our face. So we think of him then because he's, he's letting us know, you know, he's around

Teresa: 34:16

Yes, all the time.

ANNE-MARIE: 34:18

You feel them around you at that time. Unless you've lived it, it's like, okay. but once you've lived it, it's just undeniable. They are trying to get your attention to let

Teresa: 34:28

Mm.

ANNE-MARIE: 34:28

Hey, I'm one quick example is the summer after Alexander passed away. Gabe was graduating eighth grade. He had a lot of guy friends and families who were going to Hawaii. I literally invited myself and Gabe, to go with these couples who I knew I've been with them since kindergarten. I said, Hey, I'd like to take Gabe sort of out of the house. And they loved the idea and I did proactively invite myself. We get to the airport in Oahu and a

Teresa: 34:55

provided by Transcription Outsourcing, LLC.

ANNE-MARIE: 34:57

in for different hotels, you know, lots of activity. It's humid, you can hear the birds, and we're waiting on a bus, and our bus is 33.

Teresa: 35:08

Oh my God, no way.

ANNE-MARIE: 35:11

Way

Teresa: 35:12

There it is again. There's that sign.

ANNE-MARIE: 35:15

out of dozens, and he just points to the bus and looks at me and we're like, hun.

Teresa: 35:21

Yeah, there you are. Thanks for sharing your story I think it's a very powerful reminder of the strength and resilience of the human spirit and how important it is. To support each other through difficult times. You had resources from friends, family, a lot of food,

ANNE-MARIE: 35:47

lasagna.

Teresa: 35:48

lots of yummy lasagna. That sounds delish. Not everybody has large villages, and they have to find their people that can be there for them through the entire. However long it takes to get through, you've got to have your wall of people.

ANNE-MARIE: 36:07

And that's why I think a, a group like what Christa St. Germain has is really instrumental. That is the village. And again, I didn't find her until way later because she wasn't even doing this when Alexander died. But this a group of women who just share openly and, provide each other a tremendous amount of support.

Teresa: 36:25

some good resources here. Thanks again, Ann Marie. This was incredible. You are such a resilient and strong woman. Teresa, thank you for the compliment, but you are calling the kettle black. That's why we're such good friends, my dear

36:46

I hope everyone enjoyed hearing Anne Marie's journey she highly recommends the three resources she spoke about throughout the interview. I'm going to share them here the first is Comfort Zone Camp. This is a free grief camp for children. Their website is comfortzonecamp, all one word, dot org. Krista St. Germain from the Widowed Mom podcast. And Elizabeth Kubler Ross The Five Stages of Grief. Thanks everyone for joining. Until next time.